Article of the Month: Dennis Elwell Interview (part two)
Dennis Elwell – Interview by Garry Phillipson (Originally recorded 21st March 1999; reviewed and slightly revised 2nd February 2006)
Chart reading and Techniques
Q: Could you give me an idea of how you prepare and what you actually look at when you read a chart? What factors do you find important which are not generally used?
A: Some popular books encourage you to start with the signs, but my own jumping-off point is the skeleton represented by the planets and their aspects, stripped of sign influences. In this I would include symmetries (aka midpoints or half-sums), and parallels of declination. Regarding antiscia, these may belong to the co-ordinates based on parallels of declination, since degrees that are in antiscion share the same declination. In all chart reading I pay particular attention to a build up of similar influences, looking for tendencies that might be underlined, perhaps several times over. If an antiscion seems to be contributing something I will note it. Thus Hitler’s Venus Mars conjunction falls on the antiscion of Saturn, giving it a much sterner intonation.
I do note the so-called minor aspects, when they are close. Experience bears out the doctrine of George Wilde, who was writing on these angles long before the ‘harmonics’ concept was born. His view was that if (say) a septile is exact, or nearly so, it may be more important than (say) a wide square. The smaller the angle the tighter the orb. Of course the span of a lifetime allows the opportunity for the finer nuances of the horoscope to manifest, but it may be that in judging mundane charts, or horaries, only major aspects should be considered.
In all charts it has become routine with me to consider the draconitic version — that is, planetary elongations from the Moon's mean node — in relation to the familiar positions in the vernal zodiac. It is significant if a draco planet falls on or opposite a vernal planet. The draco zodiac also has a psychological value in itself, as a sort of qualifying overlay on the tropical. Whereas the vernal zodiac signifies the deeply ingrained disposition, draco seems nearer the surface of consciousness. Thus Hitler's Taurus Sun translates into draco Capricorn, giving him a much more political cast of mind.
The nodes are mysterious ‘star gates’, seeming to connect us with another dimension — perhaps what occultists would call the astral realm. I do suspect that they, and the draconitic zodiac, might be linked with previous lives, but of course in these uncertain matters one has to tread hesitantly. Perhaps they are a clue to how a past life plays into this one, as a sort of distant recollection. In my chart Saturn square Uranus falls in draco Sagittarius and Pisces, and I could relate to the ‘monastic’ feel of that combination. Various events and tendencies in my life could well persuade me that when astrology went underground in the monasteries I spent long hours copying manuscripts. But this could just be my romantic imagination working overtime!
Q: How important do you regard Chiron as being in a natal chart, and what does it signify?
A: On the subject of Chiron, it is as significant as any planet, but I do not go along with the ‘woundedness’ interpretation. Mention Chiron in a lecture, and you can see the little thought balloons go up over the audience’s heads — ‘Ah yes, the wounded healer.’ But when you are dealing with Chiron in practical work it is better to remember that his mythological namesake conducted a school for heroes. In Cosmic Loom, back in 1987, I described Chiron as ‘a provocative planet that quite enjoys giving things a stir, but which above all gives the audacity to attempt.’ As old Chiron trains us up towards accomplishments we never thought we could achieve, we need to be able to take the dare, to have an irreverent disrespect for the wise ones who say this or that can’t be done. Chiron’s style borders on cocky impudence, but perhaps its basic function is to persuade us that nothing is impossible.
The provocative side of Chiron is apt to show itself strongly in combination with Mars. Hitler was born with these bodies in close parallel, as well as septile. There are a lot of quintiles in his chart — the signature of an effective will — and the quintile between Chiron and Mercury is relevant to how he talked his way to power.
Predictive work
Q: Your name has been in the media – not just the astrological media – for two particular predictions you made. I wonder if you could please talk me through these?
A: The astrological community needs to develop a more experimental and forgiving approach to prediction. I mean there ought to be a climate where it is possible for astrologers to speculate, to brainstorm, to be tentative, without putting their reputation on the line. Instead of striking an oracular stance we have to educate the public to regard our pronouncements in terms of probabilities — best bets. We need to be able to discuss our failures, and how techniques might be improved. After all, economists and meteorologists are not expected to be infallible. Amazingly, there is no consensus on the most reliable methods of astrological forecasting, and only minimal discussion on the crucial question of the language that should be used in conveying these insights.
With so many predictions being ventured, worldwide, the chances are that somebody will get it right sometime. So you can’t take any particular comfort when your turn comes around. The only merit is to be able to get it right consistently, because your methods are reliable, which means you can show everybody else how to get it right consistently. Given our pretensions it is crazy that we cannot reach a consensus on what astrology says, rather than what this particular astrologer says. We are here in the domain of the testable. Those who insist that astrology is merely divination dishonour their subject by making themselves indistinguishable from the Tarot readers and rune casters — purveyors of the transient rather than the eternal. My hope for the future of astrology is something altogether more tangible and objective.
The reason I burst into prophetic activity in 1987 was because I had promised my publishers I would try to draw attention to astrology in general, and Cosmic Loom in particular. So I had to cast around for a promising strategy. Because of heightened Neptune activity it seemed that sea disasters were a good bet. As it turned out there were more sea disasters in 1987 than in any other year since Lloyds began to keep records.
As a journalist I knew it was pretty feeble merely to proclaim that sea disasters were imminent. Such disasters are not uncommon and, as I say, with so many sibylline voices in the market place why should yours be given special attention? Not only that, I did not want to create the impression that I believed in absolute predestination; on the contrary I think there is usually room to manoeuvre, because astrology shows us where the hidden levers are. So it was a question not so much of oracular pronouncements as issuing written warnings of the possibility of a Titanic-like disaster to specific companies to see how they would react. One was P&O, who had recently acquired the Herald of Free Enterprise, and the other was Cunard, about to relaunch the QE2 amid much media hype. (The charts of these companies indicated they were suitable for such an exercise.)
The Herald capsized ten days after P&O wrote back to say the company's safety procedures were designed to cope with an emergency from any quarter, thank you very much. There followed a good deal of self-publicity on the theme of ‘the warning ignored’, with newspaper and magazine articles, and interviews on radio and TV. Needless to say, journalistic scepticism had to be overcome by a careful scrutiny of the relevant correspondence and so forth. One journalist wanted to know what else the sage could see, so I said that in the autumn I was worried about disasters on underground transport, and that such companies should be examining their safety and security. I also mentioned this danger in an Astrological Association lecture. #Footnote: How Far Can the Future Be Predicted? The Astrological Journal, Vol XXIX No.6 p.263.# The basis for these fears was the upcoming eclipse which had Mercury conjunction Pluto, with trimmings.
The morning after the terrible Kings Cross fire the regional evening paper, the Express and Star, rang to ask if I recalled the interview I had given them, in which I had cautioned about such a tragedy, and they carried a report to that effect alongside their front-page story.
Had I been asked I might have warned, on the basis of Jupiter-Neptune, that the economy was overheating, with shares trading at way above their true value, and spiralling prices in the auction houses. This trend was to end with the crash of the markets in October that year.
My letter to Cunard brought a courteous reply, reminding me that it was their company which had rescued the Titanic passengers! I was assured my fears would be passed upwards. So that April the QE2 began her maiden voyage after her refit, but things soon began to go wrong. Half way across the Atlantic she received notification of ice in the area where the Titanic lay. What to do? It was decided, to the annoyance of the already inconvenienced passengers, to make a 250 mile detour through fog, thus arriving in New York late.
It has to be remembered that there had been considerable publicity regarding the Herald, and Cunard knew they had received the same letter from me. One of the stewards on board for that journey later told me the ship had been abuzz with the tale of the astrologer’s warning. Cunard were put in the amusing position of having to explain to one newspaper that the ship would have changed course even without the astrologer’s advice! But who is to say that my letter might not have helped to avert a disaster — after all Titanic had ploughed on into the ice regardless.
On the BBC’s Kilroy show I was asked if I had expected P&O to listen to me. Of course not! But you have to start somewhere, and perhaps eventually a sound astrology will be given a respectful hearing. People also wanted to know if P&O had come back to me afterwards, to seek advice. They did not, and I did not expect that either. But I got my revenge when the company came to launch their new flagship, the much publicised Oriana. A very negative Neptune sky! I wrote to say that if they had come back to me after the Herald I would have counselled against launching Oriana at that time, and that in particular I would have urged them to check certain inboard systems.
Well, Oriana’s troubles began when she scraped her bottom leaving the German shipyard. She did not sink, but P&O's reputation did! Later that year, after a passenger mutiny, the chief engineer complained that there were 700 things wrong with the ship — including the very systems I had cautioned about. To watch astrology working can give you a certain grisly satisfaction.
Q: Do you believe there was anything going on in 1987 – by way of transit, progression, or any other influence you care to consider – which made you particularly tuned-in to world events?
A: No, I was not particularly tuned-in to world events in 1987. I don’t rely on tuning in, just the application of simple rules which anyone can follow. I do have Neptune in the tenth house, so perhaps it is appropriate that my five minutes of fame should be connected with events on the high seas. Disasters, since Neptune is afflicted! But these things were just party tricks, not matters of particular pride, and involved a lot of teasing and a little luck.
Making really businesslike predictions is a chore. It is alarming the way some astrologers risk their reputations — not to mention astrology's reputation — by venturing predictions off the top of their head. You need to check and cross-check from different quarters, using a mix of data and proven techniques. But at the end of the day, who is going to pay you for the trouble, and who is going to listen? There are ways astrology can be turned to good account, but not by ramming it down reluctant throats.
Q: How significant do you view those predictions as being, when they are set in the context of your entire body of astrological work?
A: From my point of view, I would not wish to be remembered for any predictions, but for trying to point astrology in a new direction. It has much to offer those troubled souls who are desperate to find some meaning in the apparent chaos of events. It also contains the seeds of a radically different world view, which embraces the mysteries of time, evolution, cognition, personality, and the greatest puzzle of all, the nature of consciousness. But broadly speaking at the moment even astrologers do not see the relevance of developing this larger context, because what they are doing is largely client driven.
State of Astrology Today
Q: What changes would you like to see within the astrological world? And, indeed, what changes to astrology’s place in the world at large?
A: Astrologers are the custodians of a knowledge that can change the world, and the hope for the future has to be that they will work their way towards a more conscientious attitude towards this awesome responsibility. Part of it involves educating the public to recognize the value of the treasure that astrologers hold in their hands. Progress here would certainly sound the death knell of the Sun-sign columns, because people would realize what nonsense they are.
Q: You wouldn’t ever write a Sun-sign column yourself, then?
A: No, I would never write a Sun-sign column. For one thing it must be mind-numbingly boring, having to churn out such drivel day after day. More important, I would fear for my immortal soul. I think a special place in hell is being warmed over for those who cynically trivialise a great truth. All the arguments for and against Sun-sign astrology apply equally to prostitution. Of course, the highest paid call-girls are good at what they do!
If the odious Sun-sign columns have a value, it is to persuade everybody that astrology is just a bit of fun. They serve as a smoke screen. In fact astrology is dangerous knowledge, which could be devastating in the wrong hands. Perhaps it is better for people to be kept in ignorance.
It has been said that you can only earn real money from astrology by pandering to this market. I hope that will not remain the case for long. There ought to be at least as many astrologers as there are medical practitioners, and remunerated at the same level. The reason astrologers are not in hot demand is that what they offer nowadays is not seen as relevant to the burning issues of life. The tendency to use astrology as the back door to a psychotherapy practice has distracted attention from its real power.
Beginnings
Q: How did you get interested in astrology?
A: The way I became interested in astrology set the path I was to follow. When I was sixteen there were a lot fewer books available, and their tone was different. In the public library I came across Secret Service of the Sky, by Louis de Wohl. I remember Ronald Davison telling me this had been his own introduction to the noble art. Imagine — the planets as spies in the sky, leaking secret information! It appealed to my Scorpio ascendant. Another book was A Beginners’ Guide to Practical Astrology by Vivian Robson, with its interpretations so rooted in the world of concrete experience, which — despite its limitations — served to immunise me against the long-winded introspections so prevalent today.
Q: Which astrologers have influenced your work, and who do you admire amongst astrologers from all eras?
A: A great many astrologers have shaped my own ideas, and we all owe an immense debt of gratitude to those who have transmitted this knowledge, and added their quota, down the centuries. In my view, the thrust of a justifiable astrology is both modern and western. I suppose I admire Charles Carter more than most, because he relied on fresh observation, rather than just rehashing the tired opinions of others. In the progress towards a defensible astrology, of which the world stands in such need, the intellectual honesty of astrologers like Carter will one day be justly celebrated, just as surely as so much of what today passes for astrology will long ago have been laughed off the stage.
Q: Thank you, Dennis. I’ve long admired your ability to bring horoscopic symbolism to life, and your frequently inspired pursuit of the big questions that astrology raises. It’s been a real pleasure to learn a little more about you and your work.